Temple weddings
by non-believing dad Dec 2011
I posted awhile ago about going to my step-daughter's temple wedding coming up this spring. It is very important to my tbm wife that I get a TR and go. I told her I could do everything I needed to get a TR [temple recommend] except lie about the church being true.
Many posters on this board said that since the church lies to everyone it isn't a big deal to lie to them for family. Others said don't do it, you will never be a person of integrity if you go.
I have decided to go to the bishop a few weeks before the ceremony and lay all the cards on the table. When he asks me if I believe the church is the one true church I will tell him I am believe the church is a fraud, but I want to go to the wedding for the good of the family. If he decides to give me a TR then I will go with full disclosure. If not, I will simply tell my family I couldn't get a TR, and leave it at that. They already know I don't go to church. And, yeah, I don't think he will give me a recommend when I am honest, but maybe he will do it thinking I will come back to the church.
Anyway, it seems there are so many family members in other situations similar to mine. Either the family is part member or non-member, so they are left out of their children's wedding. There is a simple solution for the church to ease ill-feelings.
This is a no brainer. Why doesn't the church allow weddings to be held civilly for anyone of any faith to attend, and then later that day have the temple sealing with only tbm's in attendance? Why would that take away from their "sacred wedding"? It seems a lot of hurt feelings would be smoothed over and the church would look a lot better. There are a lot of bitter people out there towards the church because of good people being shut out of their children's weddings.
How long until the church gets some logic? It seems like a win-win situation for the church.
summer kites
Re: temple weddings
I have a step-daughter who's getting married next year in Utah.
Because both she and her fiancee have a lot of nonmember relatives, they have decided to get married civilly first and then wait the required year to be sealed. (Of course some of their TBM relatives aren't too happy about that)
With the other kids, it will probably be temple weddings. I've never been a member of that church, however my husband is. So it'll probably be awkward for him to have his spouse "wait outside" while he attends the marriage ceremonies.
J. Chan
I understand your question but your question demonstrates a fundamental
misunderstanding of the LDS church. The church is not interested in feelings OR the kind of logic you are describing. It is interested only in maximizing control and maximizing cash flow. It is betting, rightly or wrongly, that its restrictions on marriage ceremonies will net more control and cash flow than a different set of restrictions or no restrictions at all. No matter what the church does, there will always be disaffected people - the church is just betting that the current restrictions disaffect the least number of people and that those disaffected can be used to the church's advantage in illustrating the "need" for faithful members to toe the line and, most importantly, pay tithing.
caedmon
Re: temple weddings
+1 for what J.Chan wrote.
There are a lot of semi-active members who remain just active enough to keep a temple recommend so they aren't subjected to the humiliation of being excluded from the marriage ceremony of family they love. Being just "active enough" means they pay tithing.
It really is that simple.
I would point out to the bishop that temple marriage ceremonies in early days were open to all regardless of church status.
Also, in many countries a marriage ceremony is not recognized as valid unless it is held in a public venue. In those countries, TSCC allows couples to be sealed in the temple after the civil ceremony with no one-year punishment. If the one-year waiting period was doctrinal it would be enforced in those countries as well.
I was excluded from my convert daughter's marriage ceremony. It hurt more than I could have imagined and six years later I am weeping as a type this. In our case getting a temple recommend was never an option as we are not and never have been mormon.
I wish my daughter and son-in-law had chosen that option like summer's stepdaughter. But they believed the liars who told them they were doing the right thing and that we would get over it. (And haven't we all believed a liar at sometime in our lives?)
I especially laughed at the comment that we would be sooooo inspired by their faithfulness that we would investigate the church and eventually join. HAH! Just the opposite. Everyone of our family and friends who were made aware of this anti-family policy now despise the LDS church and will NEVER let a mormon missionary into their homes. So, it is some consolation that no one else in our family will have to go through this.
I hate TSCC and it's leader more today than I ever did.
ronas
Re: temple weddings
Save yourself the time and frustration. I doubt there is any bishop in the church that would give you a temple recommend based on that. Also even if the bishop gives you a temple recommend you also have to meet with the stake president and he has to sign the temple recommend as well before it is activated.
They will ask you 12+ questions and you have to answer all of them correctly to get a temple recommend. Some of them I remember are (paraphrasing):
1) Do you believe and have a testimony in God the Eternal Father.
2) Do you believe and have a testimony that Jesus Christ is our literal Savior
3) Do you sustain the President of the Church as a Prophet, Seer,a and Revelator and accept him as the only mouthpiece of God on earth.
4) Do you affiliate with any group that is against the church (e.g. exmormon.org).
So far you are 0 for 4.
5) Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?
6) Do you pay a full tithing?
7) Do you live the law of chastity including no porn and no masturbation?
8) If you have been through the temple before do you wear your garments night and day
9) If you have been through the temple before do you keep your temple covenants
10) Do you have any felonies?
11) Do you beat your kids or abuse anyone in your family?
12) Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the temple in every way?
exRSpresident
Re: temple weddings
Do what you need to, but don't expect understanding from the bishop. I was Relief Society president. I expressed my disbelief in Joseph Smith in openness, but said I still wanted to be involved in the ward (because I wasn't at that point ready to let it all go). He would not let me. He took my temple recommend, said I was not worthy to hold a calling or be a visiting teacher, and asked me if I wanted my records taken off of the church membership. I have learned by personal experience that there is no room for disbelief in this Church. It threatens their creed too much.
You might be interested in the New Order Mormon website, http://newordermormon.org/. They talk about ways to get through the temple recommend interview without being a TBM. I'm not sure how strictly honest that is, but at the same time, the Church will not be strictly honest with you.
Do what you want to and don't feel bad about it.
guynoirprivateeye
Re: temple weddings
I think people could get a TR for a wedding-sealing without mentioning plans to get a civil marriage first.
See if ChurchCo spies 'rat them out for getting married'; Sheesh folks, it's a ritual. It's people wanting to bond with their partner in front of a few friends (Gosh; maybe neighbors too!)
So what does ChurchCo do? pack you into a room, dress you up in costumes you wouldn't be caught in anywhere else, and make you do some gestures that have NOTHING to do with your marriage.
stupid cult.
anonymous
Re: temple weddings
You just live in the wrong country. Most countries laws require civil ceremonies but in the USA religions have been given the power to do as they wish and take away the right of parents/loved ones from attending a marriage ceremony. The church accomodates those laws in other countries and temple sealings are done following civil ceremonies. Here in this land of freedom.....not so lucky.
Crathes
Re: temple weddings
ALL questions in the TR interview are negotiable, except one. Money. For your $$ you can get in. The bishop will set conditions, such as attendance. BUT, the big one will be money. They say this is to show commitment. I say it's to get your money. It's all about the money.
My wife has already told me if either or both of our daughters decide to get married, and wish to marry in the temple, I will get back to church, and not do to her what her parents did to her. Neither of her parents were active, so her parents ended up seeing none of their children married. Stood outside and waiting. Family church?? Don't think so. What my wife does not see is that it's the church, not me, and at the time, her parents. Sadly, all those years ago, I was quite hardcore and unfeeling and made my wife choose. Sadly, I opted for the cult instead of family.
Crathes
Re: temple weddings
Damn near cried as I wrote my post. Still hurts after all these years. Ugh!!!
forbiddencokedrinker
Re: temple weddings
If you are not a true believing Mormon, they will not issue you a TR. What goes on in the temple is embarrassing (not because it is evil, but because it is so gloriously unrefined and tacky on a level that has to be experienced to be believed)
Mormons on ashamed of the temple because deep down inside they know that far from sacred it is the most corny thing the church does. They don't want a nonbeliever pointing any of that out.
Joe Laban
Re: temple weddings
What about getting sealed early in the morning and attending a civil wedding ceremony in the afternoon? Can you get married twice?
forbiddencokedrinker
Re: temple weddings
That would be the logical thing to do, but the Mormon church won't hear of it. They claim it is mocking the sacredness of the temple ceremony, because it implies that the first marriage wasn't somehow good enough.
I think it really comes down to the fact that no girl really dreams of a temple wedding, those that do, are really imagining a normal wedding that just happens to take place inside the temple. If the church allowed it, then they know everyone would get the civil wedding afterwards, for their friends, and then everyone would realize how stupid the temple marriage was.
All you can really do is go all out on the reception afterwards. If I was the parent unable to attend, I would insist that, traditional roles be damned, that I be the one who hosted the reception. Get someplace other then the crummy church basketball court, so you can be a part of your child's big day in a major way. Don't let the church start bullying you this early, because once it starts, it won't stop.
anonymous
Re: temple weddings
Joe Laban Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What about getting sealed early in the morning and
> attending a civil wedding ceremony in the
> afternoon? Can you get married twice?
You can, but not with the blessing of the church. They don't approve of any type of ceremony following a temple marriage. You can exchange rings but they don't want any "ceremony" to it.
summer
No reason why not...
...and I've read of some couples doing it that way.
I have a question -- are any witnesses required at a sealing at all (other than the officiator?) Perhaps when parents can't attend the answer is to keep *everyone* out except perhaps for two disinterested witnesses, if necessary. Then have the public wedding later.
anonymous
Re: No reason why not...
summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...and I've read of some couples doing it that
> way.
>
> I have a question -- are any witnesses required at
> a sealing at all (other than the officiator?)
> Perhaps when parents can't attend the answer is to
> keep *everyone* out except perhaps for two
> disinterested witnesses, if necessary. Then have
> the public wedding later.
Yes there are two male, of course, only the preisthood can witness the ordinance as usual. They are usually the fathers but the couple chooses who they want.
jan
Re: temple weddings
It's my understanding that due to English law, couples marry in a public, civil ceremony, then immediately are sealed in the temple.
Since Kolobian Korp touts itself as a global entity, why does the protocol for marriage in the London temple not apply to the Logan temple?
anonymous
Re: temple weddings
jan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's my understanding that due to English law,
> couples marry in a public, civil ceremony, then
> immediately are sealed in the temple.
>
> Since Kolobian Korp touts itself as a global
> entity, why does the protocol for marriage in the
> London temple not apply to the Logan temple?
Because they can get away with it with the laws in the USA.
hello
Re: temple weddings
TSCC wants the tithing. Civil weddings would reduce the immediate flow of tithing, so that would not be a win for them, it would be a lose. That's their thinking anyway.
Temples drive tithing in their business model.
Outcast
Re: I understand your question but your question demonstrates a fundamental
Exactly. Temples are simply tools to carry out extortion on the members to keep paying big bucks to the big dogs at the top of the MLM scheme.
Outcast
That's b/c extortion is meant to hurt
Outcast
Re: temple weddings
Yes, temples drive tithing b/c temples are used to extort money from the members.
Think of it this way - mormon temple blessings are exactly like the Catholic church selling indulgences back in the dark ages.
Insanity.
SusieQ#1
Re: temple weddings
The one thing a parent can stop doing is controlling their adult children's lives. If you want to participate, do so, and do so fairly, otherwise, take a different role.
Temple weddings are not an open wedding. So what. It's not your choice anyhow. You are done making their choices.
My advice: respect your adult child's choices. It's not your place to govern what they do and why.
Be grateful for what you have, and enjoy the reception, you wouldn't like the sealing ceremony which is very short, anyhow.
caedmon
Re: temple weddings
SusieQ you sound like the Mormons who tell me I shouldn't have been upset about being excluded from my daughters wedding because the ceremony has no particular importance to me. Wagging their fingers at me and telling me I'm not looking at it from the correct perspective (theirs - while they never attempt to look at it from my POV), that I don't understand the importance of the sealing (so get sealed after a civil ceremony), or (my favorite) that Stan has taken over my heart. The ceremony is SO. NOT. THE. POINT.
Yes, I KNOW the temple ceremony is short and impersonal. I don't care about the ceremony, I care about being present at an important moment of my child's life. Just as I was for the first tooth, first steps, first words. Just like I was for her first day at school, every parent-teacher meeting, every piano recital. Just like I was for her high school and college graduations. Just like I will be when her first child is born this summer.
They made their choice. I accepted it but I didn't have to like it. Yes, I enjoyed the reception (but then so did her former babysitter who hadn't seen her in ten years). I can assure you that not one mormon present knew my heart was broken.
I am grateful for what I have. But our positive relationship has come at the price of keeping my mouth shut about all things mormon, the price of keeping silent while watching people I love abused and exploited by a fraud because if I don't TSCC will encourage them to cut me totally out of their life.
jf
Re: temple weddings
Bishop will tell you that you are wanting a temple recommend for the wrong reason - to attend a wedding - and that your heart needs to be in the right place and your desires aligned with Christ. Or in other words, you must desire to do all of the things necessary for a temple recommend but not really desire the recommend itself.
I told my bishop I wanted to baptize my son (I am disfellowshipped). He told me that was not a pure reason to want my membership restored.
SusieQ#1
Re: temple weddings
You misread me. I am passionate about adult choices and those regarding our religion. I think parents need to back off and leave their adult children's choices to them. That is not, what Mormons do.
If you want to have a long lasting loving relationship it's imperative that there is more acceptance of their choices and less fussing about what you like and don't like.
Being a long time parent and grandparent I know how important that is.
You can choose how you feel. Nobody is denying you that. Be mad, hurt, disgusted, hateful, angry, anything you want.
Nobody can stop you.
I'm suggesting that you put your personal negative feelings aside and recognize that your adult children are going to make decisions that are not about your approval. It's about letting go of what you expect and giving your support to an adult child.
It's just one of those things parents need to do, in my opinion! Yes, we keep our mouth shut when it is not going to be appreciated and we show respect and unconditional love. That's where the success rate falls, in my experience.
But, hey, that's just me. I just prefer to do what works and saves families and relationships and not blame others.
loveskids
Re: temple weddings
My daughter married Jan. 2010. I hadn't been to church in 6 months. I had emailed the Bishop a few times and wasn't exactly sweetness.(He had told me earlier I needed to be a good wife to my abusive dh) I did not want to go to the Temple and struggled with what to do. I finally decided I would go so set up a mtg. with Bishop. I was very straight forward with him,he knew how I felt. He knew I hadn't been to church in 6 months. He told me if I went to Sacrament mtg. 1 time he would give it to me. He did,and the Stake Pres. was just as uninterested. He just kept asking me when I was going to take a calling. I wanted to stand on his desk and scream...but for my daughter I controlled myself. They wanted my tithing back and thought this might help,I'm sure.
So,no telling what your bishop will do!
suckafoo
Re: temple weddings
I know this sounds callous already, but it's just a wedding ceremony and it's over as soon as it begins. Can you do something nice as a gift for them? Even if it's your child and their special day you can still be a part of them without sitting through the ceremony. I know it must be hard but it's their faith and you don't share it so they exclude you. You aren't excluding anyone.
"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"