Stake Conference: Don't even Look at anything that makes you doubt.
mixedmessages Feb. 2014
My daughter went up to the heart of Utah to visit some friends this weekend. She went to stake conference with a friend, and I asked her what they spoke on. She said the speaker was adamant about NOT looking at anything, anything at all that makes you doubt.
Urgh. She said that bewilders me. I said, if the church is true, there is NOTHING that can stop it or hide it. I then went on to say, 'we know what water is made of'. You can search it on the internet, you can look it up in books. You can find things that make you doubt it, but it is true, so nothing to hide.
This is all so confusing to start having these major doubts, and then have to handle your daughter's doubts too. In one way, I don't feel like a heathen for leading her astray with my thoughts, but in some ways, my brain wants to absorb it so I can help her better.
I still think God hates me for coming here. I hate that I see the brainwashing, but I can't get it out of my head. I feel like I am watching an old version of myself and it creeps me out.
Do they really think these kinds of talks will keep people blindly obedient? What about free agency? What about when I sang 'Search, Ponder, & Pray' when I was a child. No wonder I was a nutcase over everything this week. I swear, this church makes you bipolar.
I am sad and angry because I don't know how to deal with this, and they keep just saying, "Smile, and don't look!!".
It is like masturbation and sex. You tell someone soooo many times, and they actually become more curious.
I wonder, if any of you have had similar talks recently in church or stake conference, and if any of the recent court stuff and the essays are making the leaders say this kind of stuff more in meetings. :S
I don't see how this is inspired to keep forcing us not to think. This world is filled with so much beauty, things to see, things to explore, things to discover. If none of us explored our thought outside the box, we wouldn't have all this wonderfulness.
Sigh.
lurker23
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
We were told the exact same thing this weekend at our Stake Conference, with a few extra wise words:
"Don't be friends with those who are critical of the church, don't question Doctrine and finally, don't question leaders."
We just looked at each other and were like, huh?
Is the ship sinking? Are they on full panic mode? I think so.
#notacult
gungholierthanthou
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
To doubt is to engage your brain in vetting truth claims.
Phrases like "Doubt your doubts," "avoid exposing yourself to contrary information," "read information supplied by the authorities only" are crazy making. You end up dropping bombs on innocent people.
Remember what happened in the Johnson administration? If they didn't like the data that reflected the results of their bombing campaigns in Viet Nam, they ignored or changed the data. They also characterized detractors (people who argued for looking realistically at accurate data) as "negative" (apostate) and defined success in ambiguous ways so as to justify continued bombing. It was throwing away life in order to justify lives they'd already destroyed. "It's not working, let's do more!" Analysis of the psychology became a classic example of groupthink, and groupspeek was the language, including jargon that sanctified suppression of doubt.
If you cover your eyes and ears and repeat "nananananana" inside your head, you will quit doubting. The only side effects are that you will also quit thinking, and lives will be destroyed.
crom
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
What you are feeling has a name. Google phobia indoctrination or cult induced phobia. It's emotional control. We've been taught that everyone who criticizes the church is an enemy.
funeral taters
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
It makes me so mad to hear church leaders spew that @#$%& now that I know the real reason. F#@$ that cult!
NewLifeGuy
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
So sorry this is causing you so much stress even to the point you feel God may hate you for visiting this site. Of course that is just what the church is trying to get you to feel. All these recent events has the church on a real panic defense to do whatever they can to keep the member's they have (and their tithing money) from leaving.
May I suggest you really check things out at mormonthink.com and just read the home page and the section called "introduction". This, if you have not read it already, should give you a very good perspective of why the church is getting so nervous and defensive right now with the kind of talks you are hearing concerning your doubts about the things the church has taught its members. Good luck to you and your family.
hypnosisplz
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
I second that, with all the integrity and boldness in my heart.
We are the lucky ones that got out. My heart goes out to all those still struggling with the bonds of brainwashing, social pressure, and the ignorance that the Morg breeds.
honestone
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
Boy that is upsetting. I wonder too if this is being said more now. And you are right. If the church is TRUE, there is nothing that anyone could read to have a doubt creep in. It is the very reason that it is untrue that scares them. I would think that when a group of church leaders tell -command- you not to explore the beliefs of others regarding what you have been taught that this command who send a big red flag up in your minds. That is what cults do.
I wish you well and you have no reason to feel guilty for coming here. This is a safe place-a place where you are allowed to think and read how others think. I wish you peace.
greensmythe
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
So based on this logic one should not look at the Book of Mormon. Or Doctrine & Covenants. And please please please don't look at that book that we can't mention that comes after the D&C, especially don't look at the illustrations in that Book that can't be named.
lurker23
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
And def don't look at LDS.org!
Infact, don't look at ANYTHING! Stop reading! Stop learning! Just do what we tell you. That's it. Simple.
BI
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
Phew! Guess podcasts are still ok. ;)
I was "only" indoctrinated for 18 years. Getting out was not an overnight process. Fast forward a couple of decades later and I am still a recovering (not recovered) exMo.
If we stay in the bedroom with the blinds closed, we'll never know that the sun is shining outside.
Encourage your daughter to do her research. Anyone who is trying to hide information most likely has something to cover up. Mormonthink is a great suggestion for starters.
Also, just for fun, encourage her to invent her own religion with the goal of having it grow as quickly as possible. How can she prevent members of her religion from apostatizing?
donbagley
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
As your stake president, I am advising you to not look at opposing information. Your testimony could evaporate like rain water in Death Valley. Others may challenge your faith and are best shunned. Do not entertain contentious thoughts. If you don't like your bishop, you are spitting on Joseph Smith's grave. Why don't you get with the program and obey your superiors?
BI
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
Ha!
Your stake president forgot to remind you that this would be an appropriate time to review your patriarchal blessing and make sure you are on track.
He also forgot to offer you a blessing. Bet his olive oil is already rancid.
Elder What's-his-face
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
That includes the words of the brethren.
heypal
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
The TSSC tree, so tall, so mighty and so beautiful on the outside. Inside, you know the rot is spreading and the roots are weakening.
But shhhh....don't tell anyone, just play nice.
Jack Rabbit
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
I think that's called the Streisand Effect.
Stray Mutt
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
Did they also say to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain?
knighterrant
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
my mother concerned about my welfare had me read a talk by some ga that stated the same thing; essentially that if you look at anything that causes you to doubt your testimony of joseph smith you've lost the spirit. I asked her if it struck her as odd that such and obvious fear tactic would be used. She immediately stated without thinking that that wasn't the case. To her credit she is very thoughtful and paused for along time after her initial denial and finally concluded that I did have a point.
mormonthinker
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
Seems to go against what these church leaders have said:
Gordon B. Hinckley:
Well, we have nothing to hide. Our history is an open book. They may find what they are looking for, but the fact is the history of the church is clear and open and leads to faith and strength and virtues."
•George Albert Smith:
If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak. Journal of Discourses, Volume 14, Page 216
•B.H. Roberts:
frankly state events as they occurred, in full consideration of all related circumstances, allowing the line of condemnation or justification to fall where it may..." - epilogue in The New Mormon History: Revisionist Essays on the Past.
•John Taylor:
I think a full, free talk is frequently of great use; we want nothing secret nor underhanded, and I for one want no association with things that cannot be talked about and will not bear investigation. - Journal of Discourses, Volume 20, Page 264.
•Dr. Hugh Nibley:
The Book of Mormon can and should be tested. It invites criticism. An Approach to The Book of Mormon, 1957, p. 13.
•Brigham Young:
Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test. Journal of Discourses, Volume 16, p. 46
•Orson Pratt:
Convince us of our errors of Doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the Word of God and we will ever be grateful for the information and you will ever have the pleasing reflections that you have been instruments in the hands of God of redeeming your fellow beings. - The Seer, p. 15
•Elder Marlin K. Jensen:
Our history is especially critical, because in a sense, we rise or fall with our history," he said. "If those early beginning stories that Joseph Smith told us are true, then we are the only true church as we contend. If they're not true, then we don't have what we purport to have. Mormon Times, Nov 19, 2009, found in Deseret News 19 Nov. 2009.
•J. Reuben Clark:
If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed. - J. Reuben Clark, D. Michael Quinn, J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years. Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1983, p. 24.
http://www.mormonthink.com/introductionweb.htm#whatwouldourleaders
pathfinder
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
Matthew 24:11 - And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
JoeKnows
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
This is their way of telling members DO NOT READ THE ESSAYS.
Heartless
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
I did not need anti mormon literature to open my eyes.
There was plenty before me in the standard works. Contradictions between what was printed and what was taught and lived was all I needed.
My biggest concern was the "don't question leaders" line. I pointed out that in 3 Nephi, after all the destruction, after being announced by the Father, after dedcending from heaven in a pillar of light, after performing miracles, the witness of angels, and touching his wounds; Christ himself sends the people home to ponder and oray about what he taught.
So I'd ask if Christ himself wants people to pray and think for themselves, who is man to not do likewise.
I was then told I was evil.
laurel
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
Telling teens to "do not" do something almost guarantees most of them will do what they were told not to. This will backfire.
potential convert
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
What if a potential convert taking the "discussions" asked the missionaries what the church's policy was on researching the church objectively from alternative sources.what do you think the missionaries would say?
sistertwister
Re: Stake Conference: Don't even LOOK at anything that makes you doubt.
Blind Obedience is exactly what the FLDS teach.
Warren Jeff's message is downright scary.
Will Thomas S. Monson do the same?
"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"