The missionary surge is officially a bust...

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  • user warning: Table './exmo_08072012/cache_filter' is marked as crashed and should be repaired query: UPDATE cache_filter SET data = '<p>MJ</p>\n<p>44% more missionaries, 4% more conversions.</p>\n<p><a href=\"http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57862203-78/missionaries-church-converts-lds.html.csp\" title=\"http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57862203-78/missionaries-church-converts-lds.html.csp\">http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57862203-78/missionaries-church-conver...</a></p>\n<hr />\nscarecrowfromoz<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...\n<p>\"The main problem, says independent researcher Matt Martinich, who closely watches LDS growth patterns and statistics, is that the new missionaries were largely assigned to areas such as the United States and Latin America, where Mormons are well-established and the \"market\" for the religion may be saturated.\"</p>\n<p>So they are admitting that they will never get above the 1% (or whatever they are) in the U.S. because the market is \"saturated.\"</p>\n<p>And the last sentence says it all:<br />\n\"So the most important number of conversions per proselytizer may be one: the person the missionary sees in the mirror every day.\"</p>\n<p>That\'s ALWAYS been the purpose of the missionary program, to indoctrinate the missionary. Now they are getting them at a younger age straight out of high school and living at home, where they hope to indoctrinate them before they think about leaving.</p>\n<hr />\nlily<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...\n<p>Did they not foresee this? Did they not consider that they would see some testimony-shaking results? Or are they going to explain it away by #1. the devil is standing in the way of God\'s work or #2. blaming it on the shift focus away from tracting. Did they start to shift emphasis this past year?</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Rubicon<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...</p>\n<p>The missionary program is not about bringing new people into the church. It\'s about getting the born in church members to stay in the church.</p>\n<p>If the church didn\'t pressure it\'s young men to serve missions, they would lose a lot of them when they leave home to make a life for themselves.</p>\n<p>It\'s by using family/peer pressure and telling the young ladies to not marry men who didn\'t serve a mission they get these poor guys locked into two years of intense brainwashing.</p>\n<p>They come home women starved and hungry for love and affection. They fall for an LDS woman get married in the temple and make some new members. Even if they want to leave, they are locked in more than ever.</p>\n<p>The more you understand how the church manipulates it\'s members the more your realize what a sick organization it really is.</p>\n<p>It\'s not about teaching some christ like values and encouraging people to apply them in their lives. It\'s about control and controling the next generations of members.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Reality Check<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...</p>\n<p>Rubicon nailed it. Once you go on a mission, you are trapped in the cult worse than ever.</p>\n<p>Do not send your children on missions!</p>\n<hr />\nrhgc<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...\n<p>Getting them away from home for two years is important in making their ties to TSCC stronger than their family ties. If they stayed at home for that period they are more likely to go to college near home, settle down in the home area and marry people they knew growing up. Their family ties would be stronger.</p>\n<hr />\nazsteve<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...\n<p>The church doesn\'t want you to settle down in your home area. When I got home, my Bishop told me that my friends and I need to move and go somewhere else. You make the ward look good when you go. But they really want controllable robots, not people who are tied to families who have been around a while.</p>\n<hr />\nStumbling<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...\n<p>The aim of missions is to convert the missionary.</p>\n<hr />\nTheOtherHeber<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...\n<p>It\'s interesting how isolation and temporary dependancy increase a lot the psychological vulnerability to mental manipulation. That\'s what happens in youth and EFY events. That happens in a larger scale in missions too. Converts are only a bonus.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>quinlansolo<br />\nRe: \"Hasten My Work\"....<br />\nWhy?<br />\nHow come these business savvy old farts cannot generate a decent return for their investment?</p>\n<p>Sad that they put themselves in limelight, the fact is the whole Religion business (except Islam) is failing.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>moremany<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...</p>\n<p>My brain was pretty clean at 18 and 19 years of age (of course it is a lot cleaner now) - maybe that is why I didn\'t (de)serve a mission. I wanted to create (and recreate in) worlds where people are free, respect each other, and live up to the ideals of truth, togetherness, and brother and sister hood. I am on the path... and it is usually the one less traveled. Join me?</p>\n<p>M@t</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Brother Zelph<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...</p>\n<p>The younger are going to be even less informed. When this temporary overlap in age groups is over in a few years, look out below. And they can NEVER go back to 19.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>eaglejedi<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...</p>\n<p>\"Playing it safe, Martinich maintains, is \"counterproductive in terms of baptizing new members.\"\"</p>\n<p>or it could just be the product sucks</p>\n<hr />\n<p>schlock<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...<br />\nSigh...</p>\n<p>Shummy<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...</p>\n<p>If clueless young teenagers aren\'t cutting the morg\'s mustard, sending younger more clueless teenagers is a good move?</p>\n<p>Clueless old geezers.</p>\n<hr />\nschlock<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...\n<p>And here\'s the other thing:</p>\n<p>18 year old boys, and 19 year old girls, are even more naïve and obnoxious and self-centered and arrogant than are 19 year old boys and 21 year old girls.</p>\n<p>So they\'ve taken an already ridiculously immature (read brats) sales force, and doubled down on the insolent factor of the same by pushing the average age of their sales people deeper into their angst-ridden and obnoxious and peer-conscious and hormonally-challenged teens.</p>\n<p>Great idea Q15. Idiots.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>deco<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...</p>\n<p>I would submit that this may be far worse than projected.</p>\n<p>In addition to having less maturity and experience in the world, these young people also have a greater access and knowledge of technology...particularly social media.</p>\n<p>This could be a lethal mix for LDS Inc. For example, my guess is that most of the LDS issued Ipads have been jail broke, or personal and untraceable tablets have been obtained by the missionaries for private use.</p>\n<p>The key number to know is what percentage of these young people have alter ego accounts on social media that LDS inc is not aware of.</p>\n<p>With that being the case, young LDS people do have continuos access to home and more importantly, outside information. The perfect remedy for indoctrination, and impossible for LDS Inc to defend.</p>\n<p>We are seeing the indoctrination system being compromised and it will have devastating ramifications for LDS Inc in the future.</p>\n<p>LDS Inc will be forced to change into a nearly unrecognizable form of its former self, or it will perish.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Shummy<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...</p>\n<p>Yeah, I don\'t think their rusty old bicycle has many more miles left on it.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>grubbygert<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...</p>\n<p>as many have noted it\'s all about \'converting\' the missionary</p>\n<p>but I think this can be taken one step farther: the male RM is only one half of TSCC\'s lifetime TBM baby making program</p>\n<p>they have a very efficient system for programing girls and an essential part of that program is the carrot of marrying an RM in the temple</p>\n<p>they can afford to give the missionaries a crappy experience and they can also afford to have some missionaries come home somewhat disillusioned with their church but what they can\'t afford is to have less male RMs than they have marriage and baby hungry young women - a situation they\'ve been in for some time</p>\n<p>once the young and horny guy is locked into a marriage he\'s stuck: he\'s getting laid if he plays along (carrot) and he faces extreme social punishment (stick) if he leaves TSCC and/or the marriage</p>\n<p>I think the key to the long term survival of TSCC is the continued princessification of their young girls (i.e., \"I\'m a special daughter of God and the most important thing in my life is get married in God\'s temple and to make lots of babies\")</p>\n<p>I know it\'s not pretty to say it this way (yes, I\'m basically saying TSCC uses girls as rewards for missionary service) but from what I\'ve seen both in my personal life and in a decade on this board what is really meant by \'converting the missionary\' is actually \'getting the boys married ASAP\'</p>\n<hr />\n<p>evergreennotloggedin<br />\nRe: \"Hasten My Work\"....</p>\n<p>The best return for TSCC\'s investment is the missionary program. TSCC forces missionaries to pay for their own missions--savings there. They skim money from the $400 bucks a month paid by parents by limiting spending by missionary and asking members already paying 10% tithing + to supplement missionary support--100% roi there. They gain the lifelong commitment of the missionary for free, 100 roi there. Yep, they not only not have to pay for missionaries, but they make money off of them in addition to lifelong commitment.</p>\n<hr />\ngrubbygert<br />\nRe: \"Hasten My Work\"....\n<p>yes - this cannot be talked about enough - TSCC has everything to gain and nothing to lose from the missionary program - even if they are getting crappy baptism numbers</p>\n<p>the missionary program is also a Mission President (read: GA filter) program - so there\'s that to consider as well</p>\n<p>bottom line: they will never do away with missions</p>\n<hr />\n<p>helemon<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...</p>\n<p>How can any market be saturated until 100% of the people are Mormon? They have never used the saturation excuse before. It must be that these new missionaries are extra sinful and lacking in faith. I doubt the MPs of these young missionaries are not telling them, \'It\'s ok elders, don\'t be too hard on yourselves, the market for religion in this mission is saturated.\'</p>\n<p>Why were the brethren inspired to call these missionaries to places that were saturated and wouldn\'t be productive?</p>\n<p>Besides the stated goal of converting the missionary, could the church have done this to get a 44% increase in missionary fund donations, which they happen to manage? Is the church profiting from the increase in new missionaries in ways besides new tithing dollars?</p>\n<hr />\nsouthern idaho inactive<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...\n<p>That\'s because the clueless old geezers running the morg don\'t live in the real world! They live in a fantasy land!!</p>\n<hr />\nB\'hamster<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...\n<p>A fantasy land populated with Yes-men who are secretly aspiring to a high position themselves. The lies go both up and down the ladder and they\'re all too vested in the system to step back and face the truth.</p>\n<p>The Yes-men are never going to speak the truth to the out-of-touch apostles at the top of the corporation. Meanwhile, everything is slowly crumbling around them.</p>\n<hr />\nBrother Zelph<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...\n<p>Lowering the age to 18 will be yet another embarrassment to the LDS church. We will continue to see dismal results, especially as the older ones leave the mission field. I don\'t think Monson is going to be able to wiggle his ears out of this fiasco.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>NormaRae<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...</p>\n<p>My thoughts exactly. Saturated? 1% of the population means the U.S. is saturated? The only thing that is saturated is the internet. It\'s saturated with facts and information and truth. Because of that, the field that is so white and ready to harvest has been narrowed down to a barren, thirsty, piece of desert that might have some wild flowers bloom occassionally that the poor mishies can pluck.</p>\n<hr />\nerictheex<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...\n<p>ok let\'s do the math:</p>\n<p>They could have had he same growth with an additional 2194 missionaries. That means that the extra missionaries (@10k per mission) wasted $255,000,000.</p>\n<p>That money could have brought more people into the church with a media campaign, a donation to a hospital, etc</p>\n<p>it makes it very clear that this is about keeping those YM/YW from leaving the church. Once this wave of kids comes back, it will take many years for the church (and those kids) to recoup that money in tithing.</p>\n<p>What a waste. What a lack of vision. How desperate.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>iris<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...</p>\n<p>It would be interesting to learn of the number or percentage of missionaries (since the younger age was implemented) that have come home early for whatever reason. I don\'t expect the numbers will be released publicly but it would be interesting to know.</p>\n<p>\"Unlike many denominations, the 15 million-member LDS Church is still adding throngs of members (and faster than most).\"</p>\n<p>If they don\'t release how many resign or are excommunicated, then the 15 million number is pretty useless IMO.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>grubbygert<br />\nRe: The missionary surge is officially a bust...</p>\n<p>\"That money could have...\"</p>\n<p>but what money? TSCC doesn\'t pay for missions - the parents and/or ward members of the missionaries do</p>\n<p>missions are a win/win for TSCC even if without converts because they cost nothing* and they produce RMs (read: lifelong slaves and tithe payers)</p>\n<p>* Mission Presidents are paid but I would argue that the primary benefit of Mission Presidents is also not the converts produced by their mission - it\'s more like a General Authority In Training situation</p>\n<hr />\ntoday\'s anon\n<p>Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...<br />\nNext change?</p>\n<p>It is a commandment that all worthy young females must serve a mission at 19.</p>\n<p>I\'d like to see how that goes over. :)</p>\n<p>\"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org\"</p>\n', created = 1493507736, expire = 1493594136, headers = '', serialized = 0 WHERE cid = '2:32d8456db76b35886ad365e56a81f98d' in /home/exmormon/public_html/d6/drupal/includes/cache.inc on line 112.

MJ

44% more missionaries, 4% more conversions.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57862203-78/missionaries-church-conver...


scarecrowfromoz
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

"The main problem, says independent researcher Matt Martinich, who closely watches LDS growth patterns and statistics, is that the new missionaries were largely assigned to areas such as the United States and Latin America, where Mormons are well-established and the "market" for the religion may be saturated."

So they are admitting that they will never get above the 1% (or whatever they are) in the U.S. because the market is "saturated."

And the last sentence says it all:
"So the most important number of conversions per proselytizer may be one: the person the missionary sees in the mirror every day."

That's ALWAYS been the purpose of the missionary program, to indoctrinate the missionary. Now they are getting them at a younger age straight out of high school and living at home, where they hope to indoctrinate them before they think about leaving.


lily
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

Did they not foresee this? Did they not consider that they would see some testimony-shaking results? Or are they going to explain it away by #1. the devil is standing in the way of God's work or #2. blaming it on the shift focus away from tracting. Did they start to shift emphasis this past year?


Rubicon
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

The missionary program is not about bringing new people into the church. It's about getting the born in church members to stay in the church.

If the church didn't pressure it's young men to serve missions, they would lose a lot of them when they leave home to make a life for themselves.

It's by using family/peer pressure and telling the young ladies to not marry men who didn't serve a mission they get these poor guys locked into two years of intense brainwashing.

They come home women starved and hungry for love and affection. They fall for an LDS woman get married in the temple and make some new members. Even if they want to leave, they are locked in more than ever.

The more you understand how the church manipulates it's members the more your realize what a sick organization it really is.

It's not about teaching some christ like values and encouraging people to apply them in their lives. It's about control and controling the next generations of members.


Reality Check
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

Rubicon nailed it. Once you go on a mission, you are trapped in the cult worse than ever.

Do not send your children on missions!


rhgc
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

Getting them away from home for two years is important in making their ties to TSCC stronger than their family ties. If they stayed at home for that period they are more likely to go to college near home, settle down in the home area and marry people they knew growing up. Their family ties would be stronger.


azsteve
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

The church doesn't want you to settle down in your home area. When I got home, my Bishop told me that my friends and I need to move and go somewhere else. You make the ward look good when you go. But they really want controllable robots, not people who are tied to families who have been around a while.


Stumbling
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

The aim of missions is to convert the missionary.


TheOtherHeber
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

It's interesting how isolation and temporary dependancy increase a lot the psychological vulnerability to mental manipulation. That's what happens in youth and EFY events. That happens in a larger scale in missions too. Converts are only a bonus.


quinlansolo
Re: "Hasten My Work"....
Why?
How come these business savvy old farts cannot generate a decent return for their investment?

Sad that they put themselves in limelight, the fact is the whole Religion business (except Islam) is failing.


moremany
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

My brain was pretty clean at 18 and 19 years of age (of course it is a lot cleaner now) - maybe that is why I didn't (de)serve a mission. I wanted to create (and recreate in) worlds where people are free, respect each other, and live up to the ideals of truth, togetherness, and brother and sister hood. I am on the path... and it is usually the one less traveled. Join me?

M@t


Brother Zelph
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

The younger are going to be even less informed. When this temporary overlap in age groups is over in a few years, look out below. And they can NEVER go back to 19.


eaglejedi
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

"Playing it safe, Martinich maintains, is "counterproductive in terms of baptizing new members.""

or it could just be the product sucks


schlock
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...
Sigh...

Shummy
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

If clueless young teenagers aren't cutting the morg's mustard, sending younger more clueless teenagers is a good move?

Clueless old geezers.


schlock
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

And here's the other thing:

18 year old boys, and 19 year old girls, are even more naïve and obnoxious and self-centered and arrogant than are 19 year old boys and 21 year old girls.

So they've taken an already ridiculously immature (read brats) sales force, and doubled down on the insolent factor of the same by pushing the average age of their sales people deeper into their angst-ridden and obnoxious and peer-conscious and hormonally-challenged teens.

Great idea Q15. Idiots.


deco
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

I would submit that this may be far worse than projected.

In addition to having less maturity and experience in the world, these young people also have a greater access and knowledge of technology...particularly social media.

This could be a lethal mix for LDS Inc. For example, my guess is that most of the LDS issued Ipads have been jail broke, or personal and untraceable tablets have been obtained by the missionaries for private use.

The key number to know is what percentage of these young people have alter ego accounts on social media that LDS inc is not aware of.

With that being the case, young LDS people do have continuos access to home and more importantly, outside information. The perfect remedy for indoctrination, and impossible for LDS Inc to defend.

We are seeing the indoctrination system being compromised and it will have devastating ramifications for LDS Inc in the future.

LDS Inc will be forced to change into a nearly unrecognizable form of its former self, or it will perish.


Shummy
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

Yeah, I don't think their rusty old bicycle has many more miles left on it.


grubbygert
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

as many have noted it's all about 'converting' the missionary

but I think this can be taken one step farther: the male RM is only one half of TSCC's lifetime TBM baby making program

they have a very efficient system for programing girls and an essential part of that program is the carrot of marrying an RM in the temple

they can afford to give the missionaries a crappy experience and they can also afford to have some missionaries come home somewhat disillusioned with their church but what they can't afford is to have less male RMs than they have marriage and baby hungry young women - a situation they've been in for some time

once the young and horny guy is locked into a marriage he's stuck: he's getting laid if he plays along (carrot) and he faces extreme social punishment (stick) if he leaves TSCC and/or the marriage

I think the key to the long term survival of TSCC is the continued princessification of their young girls (i.e., "I'm a special daughter of God and the most important thing in my life is get married in God's temple and to make lots of babies")

I know it's not pretty to say it this way (yes, I'm basically saying TSCC uses girls as rewards for missionary service) but from what I've seen both in my personal life and in a decade on this board what is really meant by 'converting the missionary' is actually 'getting the boys married ASAP'


evergreennotloggedin
Re: "Hasten My Work"....

The best return for TSCC's investment is the missionary program. TSCC forces missionaries to pay for their own missions--savings there. They skim money from the $400 bucks a month paid by parents by limiting spending by missionary and asking members already paying 10% tithing + to supplement missionary support--100% roi there. They gain the lifelong commitment of the missionary for free, 100 roi there. Yep, they not only not have to pay for missionaries, but they make money off of them in addition to lifelong commitment.


grubbygert
Re: "Hasten My Work"....

yes - this cannot be talked about enough - TSCC has everything to gain and nothing to lose from the missionary program - even if they are getting crappy baptism numbers

the missionary program is also a Mission President (read: GA filter) program - so there's that to consider as well

bottom line: they will never do away with missions


helemon
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

How can any market be saturated until 100% of the people are Mormon? They have never used the saturation excuse before. It must be that these new missionaries are extra sinful and lacking in faith. I doubt the MPs of these young missionaries are not telling them, 'It's ok elders, don't be too hard on yourselves, the market for religion in this mission is saturated.'

Why were the brethren inspired to call these missionaries to places that were saturated and wouldn't be productive?

Besides the stated goal of converting the missionary, could the church have done this to get a 44% increase in missionary fund donations, which they happen to manage? Is the church profiting from the increase in new missionaries in ways besides new tithing dollars?


southern idaho inactive
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

That's because the clueless old geezers running the morg don't live in the real world! They live in a fantasy land!!


B'hamster
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

A fantasy land populated with Yes-men who are secretly aspiring to a high position themselves. The lies go both up and down the ladder and they're all too vested in the system to step back and face the truth.

The Yes-men are never going to speak the truth to the out-of-touch apostles at the top of the corporation. Meanwhile, everything is slowly crumbling around them.


Brother Zelph
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

Lowering the age to 18 will be yet another embarrassment to the LDS church. We will continue to see dismal results, especially as the older ones leave the mission field. I don't think Monson is going to be able to wiggle his ears out of this fiasco.


NormaRae
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

My thoughts exactly. Saturated? 1% of the population means the U.S. is saturated? The only thing that is saturated is the internet. It's saturated with facts and information and truth. Because of that, the field that is so white and ready to harvest has been narrowed down to a barren, thirsty, piece of desert that might have some wild flowers bloom occassionally that the poor mishies can pluck.


erictheex
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

ok let's do the math:

They could have had he same growth with an additional 2194 missionaries. That means that the extra missionaries (@10k per mission) wasted $255,000,000.

That money could have brought more people into the church with a media campaign, a donation to a hospital, etc

it makes it very clear that this is about keeping those YM/YW from leaving the church. Once this wave of kids comes back, it will take many years for the church (and those kids) to recoup that money in tithing.

What a waste. What a lack of vision. How desperate.


iris
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

It would be interesting to learn of the number or percentage of missionaries (since the younger age was implemented) that have come home early for whatever reason. I don't expect the numbers will be released publicly but it would be interesting to know.

"Unlike many denominations, the 15 million-member LDS Church is still adding throngs of members (and faster than most)."

If they don't release how many resign or are excommunicated, then the 15 million number is pretty useless IMO.


grubbygert
Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...

"That money could have..."

but what money? TSCC doesn't pay for missions - the parents and/or ward members of the missionaries do

missions are a win/win for TSCC even if without converts because they cost nothing* and they produce RMs (read: lifelong slaves and tithe payers)

* Mission Presidents are paid but I would argue that the primary benefit of Mission Presidents is also not the converts produced by their mission - it's more like a General Authority In Training situation


today's anon

Re: The missionary surge is officially a bust...
Next change?

It is a commandment that all worthy young females must serve a mission at 19.

I'd like to see how that goes over. :)

"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"