More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances

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  • user warning: Table './exmo_08072012/cache_filter' is marked as crashed and should be repaired query: UPDATE cache_filter SET data = '<p>steve benson Dec. 2013</p>\n<p>As they say, when the Mormon crickets rain, they pour.</p>\n<p>Below is further information coming out from the inside on a variety of fronts, pertaining to {the new essays, SSM and church finances}:</p>\n<p>1) the research, authorship and internal consequences of the Mormon Church\'s essays on problematic areas of LDS history and doctrine;</p>\n<p>2) internal Mormon Church developments relating to the evenaul nation-wide legalization of same-sex marriage and how the Mormon Church may be preparing to accommodate that scenario; and</p>\n<p>3) the extent of LDS Inc. financial holdings and who inside the Mormon Church super-structure does and does not have full knowledge of LDS Inc.\'s full financial picture<br />\n_____</p>\n<p>--The Nature and Effect that the Mormon Church\'s Anonymously-Authored Essays Aee Having on Those Tasked to Write Them</p>\n<p>According to a source of mine who has contacts with Mormon Church correlation committee employees, one of these individuals (whose identity, although known, is being kept confidential here) has direct contact with LDS General Authority/Church Historian and Recorder, Steven Snow. This Mormon Church-committee researcher/writer is regarded by colleagues as respected, informed, forthright and honest when it comes to Mormon Church historical issues--and is one who is seen as being well aware of the problems these issues pose to the Church. My source informs me that some of these Church researchers/writers, including this individual, get together on occasion to compare notes with one another.</p>\n<p>The particular individual being mentioned here works within the Church\'s history-committee system and, from that vantage point, has been judiciously and strategically posting information in various venues about what they know about certain historical matters which are described as being sensitive for the Mormon Church.</p>\n<p>For instance, it was this individual who publicly noted the following (as quoted earlier on this board):</p>\n<p>\"The concern going in from the Brethren was how to roll this out without creating a (look-at-all-of-our-problems) page. The Brethren don\'t want to start faith issues where they don\'t currently exist, and they are correct that the majority of active and believing Saints don\'t know or care about this stuff, particularly outside of Utah and the United States.</p>\n<p>\"The decision was made to incorporate them [the essays] into already-existing areas of the [Mormon Church\'s official] website and not do a big campaign (outside of the organic interest that will naturally result). From a business perspective, it\'s probably a wise move. . . . . [I]t\'s really all about inoculating the next generation. Elder [Steven] Snow has said as much directly to me. They are well aware that skeptics will likely not be satisfied with these answers or their choice of roll-out. It\'s there for members to see if they are planning lessons, talks, and I know that they are working towards integrating them with curriculum; particularly youth curriculum.\" . . .</p>\n<p>“This much is clear: They [the essays] are not designed to restore people\'s faith as much as they are designed to lessen future disaffections; Members who come across damning information for the first time and turn to LDS.org to see what the Church says on the matter. The goal is to give them a faithful response while still acknowledging the complexity of the issue.”</p>\n<p>(\"The Debate Over the 13 New Essays?,\" posted by “epiginosko,” in \"New Order Mormon,\" 10-11 December 2013, at; <a href=\"http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&amp;t=33954&amp;\" title=\"http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&amp;t=33954&amp;\">http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&amp;t=33954&amp;</a>)start=20)<br />\n_____</p>\n<p>--The Mormon Church is Said to Possibly be Preparing for an Inevitable National Legalization of Same-Sex Marriage and Considering Modifiying Its Temple Wedding Procedures Accordingly</p>\n<p>My source has been in contact with what has been described as a well-placed and completely credible senior executive in the Utah corporate world (whose identity is also known but being protected here). This individual is reportedly aware of how the Morrmon Church\'s legal beagles may be looking at unfolding realites on the same-sex-marriage front.</p>\n<p>According to this executive (some of whose posts I have seen), a member of the Mormon Church\'s legal team (a team that has long been battling marriage equality) is of the view that 50-state legalizion of same-sex marriage is an unavoidable eventuality.</p>\n<p>Given that expectation, this Mormon Church legal advisor is reportedly of the view that the Mormon Church may ultimately implement a U.s.-focused policy that not only accepts civil unions, but that combines these constitutionally-lawful unions with LDS temple-performed sealings, in order to prevent the Mormon Church from becoming entangled in legal problems (along the same lines as the Mormon Church is now doing in some European countries).</p>\n<p>commenting on these possible developments, the senior executive observed that if the law ends up driving the Mormon Church to adopt a civil-marriage-first policy, &nbsp; it would make it much easier to preserve family cohesiveness when, otherwise, certain famly members would be excluded from celebrating LDS marital events because they are not deemed worthy to participate.<br />\n_____.</p>\n<p>--Secrecy Within the Mormon Church Hierarchy Regarding the Full Breadth of Its Financial Holdings</p>\n<p>Citing the same senior corporate excutive mentioend above, my source reported that only eight indivudals within the Mormon Church\'s highest functioning bodies are fully ware of LDS Inc.\'s financials. These individuals are:</p>\n<p>1) the First Presidency;</p>\n<p>2) the Presiding Bishopric; and</p>\n<p>3) two unnamed LDS finanical leaders (although one of whom is said to be related to the aformentioned senior corporate executive)</p>\n<p>Pointed note was made that even the Quorum of the Twelve is not kept in the full fnaancial loop.</p>\n<p>According to the senior executive, this small, elite group meets only once annually, at which time the complete financil picture for LDS Inc. is reviewed. The other individual components of the organization are described as being limited in their knowledge to only that part of organizational operations in which they are respectively involved.</p>\n<p>**********</p>\n<p>I appreciate my source\'s willingness to share the above credible, insightful and valuable information for the express purpose of public disclosure. As this individual observed, the Mormon Church is in need of experiencing the effects of sunlight on its secrets. To that end, they said they would pass information along as it is received.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances<br />\nGreat information. Thank You</p>\n<p>As Robert Frost once said, \" It is all so departmental\"</p>\n<p>LDS = A corporation managed on current, modern principles of business management, with not even a passing thought about right or wrong or any concept of religion or ethics, or morals.</p>\n<p>I recently have come to the conclusion that Mormon leaders are not religious people, merely opportunists looking for a comfortable corporate life, and a ego platform for themselves and their families ( hence the royalty factor ), and if they even had a marginal belief in a God, they would expose whatever truth they knew to the membership at large.</p>\n<p>I now finally understand why I was sick to my stomach any time I heard a GA speak. For they are truly evil.</p>\n<p>I have no idea if there is any type of God. However the little possibility that these stupid bastards would have to answer to something for their crimes gives me a deep and abiding joy in every fiber of my soul.</p>\n<hr />\nDave the Atheist<br />\nRe: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances<br />\ngood stuff\n<p>jazzskeeter<br />\nRe: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances<br />\nThanks for the info!</p>\n<p>I\'m not connecting the dots about why the church would implement a civil marriage followed by a temple ceremony option for the U.S. as a result of nationwide legalization of gay marriage.</p>\n<p>Please explain?<br />\nThank you.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>steve benson<br />\nThe LDS Church, in this scenario, would recognize civil unions as valid...<br />\n. . . then seal them, under revamped LDS Church protocol, in their temples.</p>\n<p>In other words, once again, the Mormon God would end up bowing to secular authority.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances<br />\nYes, the \"Mormon God\" is a invention of selfish egomaniacs, masquerading as clergy....</p>\n<p>Want to get a new young wife each time yours gets old, we have a god for that.</p>\n<p>Want to run a hedge fund called a church by extracting 10% of income from your sheep, yep, gods all in.</p>\n<p>Want to come up with \"revelation\" that contradicts earlier \"revelation\" but somehow both are from GOD??</p>\n<p>Whatever and whenever these lying, filthy bastards want to tell a new whopper, they invent a new god for it.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>moira<br />\nRe: The LDSChurch, in this scenario, would recognize civil unions as valid...</p>\n<p>That would be amazing. I could possibly attend a TBM\'s wedding in my lifetime (what\'s left of it).</p>\n<hr />\n<p>CloakedXman<br />\nRe: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances</p>\n<p>Sorry I\'m not following...are you saying civil unions may be \"sealed\" in the revamped ceremony? Thanks Steve.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>steve benson<br />\nEuropean precedent . . .</p>\n<p>\"In the United Kingdom, the law requires that a marriage be performed at a public ceremony (the same also holds true for Austria). Since attendance at a [Mormon] temple sealing is restricted, a couple will be married locally by a person who is duly authorized to perform marriages. This person will usually be a registrar of marriages. The marriage can be performed at the local registrar\'s office, or in some cases at an LDS chapel. Some bishops or branch presidents have been officially given the title of a deputy registrar, and as such are legally able to perform a civil ceremony in the chapel. The couple will then travel to the nearest LDS temple (London or Preston) for their temple marriage.\"</p>\n<p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealing_(Mormonism);</p>\n<p>see also: <a href=\"http://blog.mrm.org/2013/09/punishing-mormon-newlyweds/comment-page-1/\" title=\"http://blog.mrm.org/2013/09/punishing-mormon-newlyweds/comment-page-1/\">http://blog.mrm.org/2013/09/punishing-mormon-newlyweds/comment-page-1/</a></p>\n<hr />\n<p>Senoritalamanita<br />\nRe: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances<br />\nSteve:</p>\n<p>Regarding the 8 individuals -- the elite group that meets once a year to review the church financial situation:</p>\n<p>Is there an Annual Report published for their review at this time or some other type of internal report on paper?</p>\n<p>Wouldn\'t it be something to get hold of that document?</p>\n<hr />\n<p>deco<br />\nRe: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances<br />\nI guess that throws out the notion of a 12 year old aaronic phood holder having more power in his little finger than POTUS or the pope</p>\n<p>For Mormons keeping score, it is another asswhoopin courtesy of the American government.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>johnnyboy<br />\nRe: European precedent . . .<br />\nHow does this policy change affect gays and lesbians other than the fact that they can now attend a civil ceremony? Couldn\'t they already do that if the civil ceremony was held first? In other words the \"marriage\" is going to be a separate and distinct ceremony from the sealing.</p>\n<p>I don\'t get why they didn\'t just do that to begin with.</p>\n<p>Ugh. So tired of this. I can\'t wait to tell my TBM parents who got married in the 60\'s while their parents had to sit outside the temple and wait. Hahahaha!</p>\n<hr />\n<p>steve benson<br />\nWhat it may do is result in the Mormon Church recognizing . . .<br />\n. . . the immediate validity of gay civil-union ceremonies in the eyes of the law, within the context of possibly eventuating in the Mormon Church sealing those ceremonies in its temples.</p>\n<p>Don\'t say that it couldn\'t happen. Look at other \"eternal\" Mormon doctrines that have been warp-woofed over time:</p>\n<p>--Blacks and the priesthood</p>\n<p>--Polygamy</p>\n<p>--Blood Atonement</p>\n<p>--Men-into-Gods</p>\n<p>The Mormon Church is an ever-fluctuating flavor-of-the-month religion, trying ever-so-hard to create a menu that appeals to wider non-Mormon society. It\'s rather pathetic to watch.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>johnnyboy<br />\nRe: What it may do is result in the Mormon Church recognizing . . .</p>\n<p>I see where the logic is going with what you are saying, but it seems that everything in the temple would have to be revamped AGAIN! (And again and again and again)</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Ctus<br />\nRe: The LDS Church, in this scenario, would recognize civil unions as valid...<br />\nEven with same sex marriage becoming legal and even if the church allows these couples to be sealed in their temples, I don\'t see why they would automatically throw out their current \"temple marriage first\" admonitions. The two issues seem to be separate.</p>\n<hr />\nsteve benson<br />\nThe Mormon temple ceremony itself as been repeatedly revamped . . .<br />\n. . . with its death oaths, signs and penalties removed in 1990 (along with its direct-contact naked-body oil anointings); and, before that, its \"Oath of Vengeance\" against the United States government for the killing of Joseph Smith expunged, as well.\n<hr />\n<p>Hanklee<br />\nRe: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances<br />\nThis document probably doesn\'t leave the Prophet\'s office or study room. Maybe it is compartementalized. Each person just looks at their area and submit the results independently. Only the prophet knows the entire picture.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Phillis<br />\nRe: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances<br />\nIf this document was in a PDF and easily distributed it probably would have been done already. I\'d think this info would be transferred to a physical log book so it can never \"fall into the wrong hands\".</p>\n<hr />\nsteve benson<br />\nIF the Mormon Church eventually revokes its condemnation of gays . . .<br />\n. . . one may see gay unions/marriages (civil or otherwise) being sealed in the Mormon temple.\n<p>The LDS Church is the Gumby-version of modern-day revelation.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>johnnyboy<br />\nRe: The LDS Church, in this scenario, would recognize civil unions as valid...<br />\nThe policy has to change as a \"stepping stone\" towards accepting gay marriage at all.</p>\n<p>The church won\'t go in such a major reversal on doctrine all at once. Baby steps are required. Just like the Boy Scout ruling. I don\'t expect gay sealings in my life time, but marriage first outside the temple...that\'s an easy doctrine, I mean \"policy\" change</p>\n<hr />\n<p>steve benson<br />\nThe Mormon Church has been in revelation-reversal mode from the beginning</p>\n<p>It is hoping to do it slow enough, however, that busy-bee believing Mormons won\'t notice--and if they do notice, don\'t care because their leaders have commanded them not to care.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Ctus<br />\nRe: IF the Mormon Church eventually revolkes its condemnation of gays . . .<br />\nSo did I misunderstand you? I thought you were implying that they would then throw out the temple first admonitions after they stay allowing same sex ceremonies.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>johnnyboy<br />\nRe: The Mormon temple ceremony itself as been repeatedly revamped . . .<br />\nHahaha. You should have seen my dads face when he told me how he knew more than me about church doctrine. I asked him \"then explain to me the 2nd anointing and also the oath of vengeance\".</p>\n<p>He had no clue what I was talking about.</p>\n<hr />\nsteve benson<br />\nThe Mormon Church has thrown out plenty of doctrine . . .<br />\nIt is now being pressured to allow civil marriages to be immediately recognized for sealing in Mormon temples (which could at some point result in immediate sealings of gay civl unions in their temples).\n<p>Who knows when that will occur, if it does.</p>\n<p>But in the Mormon world of re-occurring retro-fitting, any \"revelation\" is possible.</p>\n<p>Hell, it\'s now throwing out Brigham Young. Who\'s next? Only time and society will tell.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>johnnyboy<br />\nRe: The Mormon Church has been in revelation-reversal mode from ithe beginning<br />\nThat\'s how they handle everything even remotely \"controversial\". I\'m out in north Texas in a very affluent area, and most of the TBM\'s here have no idea about any of these issues or church politics or apologetic politics (ie maxwell institute firings). Most of them don\'t even know about little things like the wofw policy change, or the changes to the scriptures this year. My TBM mom thought she was hip by telling me about the new \"movie\"... I mean FILM in the temple. I said, \"yeah I knew about that months ago cus I read EVIL websites\"</p>\n<hr />\njohnnyboy<br />\nRe: The Mormon Church has been in revelation-reversal mode from ithe beginning<br />\nThe church is also quietly doing this with the \"history of the church\" volumes.\n<p>I am going to start a new thread about their reasons given for not using it anymore and how they \"double speak\" about it not being digitized</p>\n<hr />\n<p>steve benson<br />\nI used to live in north Texas--Richardson, suburb of Dallas. . . .<br />\nThere the Mormon Church was strong--and comfortably clueless.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Ctus<br />\nRe: The Mormon Church has thrown out plenty of doctrine . . ..<br />\nThe thought of being able to see my kids married........<br />\nOf course none are even on the fence yet, but a couple are climbing. And some cog dis is beginning to set in for my daughter. One can hope. It may not even end up being an issue.</p>\n<hr />\njohnnyboy<br />\nRe: I used to live in north Texas--Richardson, suburb of Dallas. . . .<br />\nI knew you lived up there. I don\'t know how often you visit but the Plano, mckinney, frisco and Allen area is ridiculously Mormon and super wealthy now. The ward I am in is all full of rich fake boob women and TBM husbands who literally have no clue of the goings on in Utah. Most members are from all over the country. Most from California and Florida. I am sure there are a few lurkers that read this site, but my wife and I can\'t believe how little members really know.\n<hr />\n<p>BirdUncaged<br />\nRe: I used to live in north Texas--Richardson, suburb of Dallas. . . .<br />\nStop picking on fake boob women!! Seriously, mine got sealed in my favorite temple...ehem... bra this weekend.</p>\n<hr />\nBrother Of Jerry<br />\nRe: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances<br />\nInteresting. Does my heart good that Boyd was always frozen out of the ultimate LDS inner circle. I suspect they were wise to do that. I wouldn\'t trust that weasel either.\n<p>As for same sex marriage, I expect full integration into church procedures. Second class recognition, or worse, no recognition would lead to as many problems for LDS Inc as it is in states. Trying to run some sort of marriage apartheid will land them in one procedural minefield after another. They will do the right thing, if only because it will be too difficult not to.</p>\n<p>We need a COB version of Edward Snowdon, though it sounds like we are part way there. Cool. Nice work, Steve and the gang.</p>\n<hr />\njohnnyboy<br />\nRe: I used to live in north Texas--Richardson, suburb of Dallas. . . .<br />\nIt\'s kind of hard not to when the young women\'s presidency all goes out together to get boob jobs and have parties for it while telling their daughters and 50 other young women at church that it\'s \"what\'s inside that\'s important\" and \"looks don\'t matter\".\n<p>The fact that they can do that with a straight face is sad.</p>\n<p>Plus over half these women were already gorgeous, and now they just look really tacky.</p>\n<hr />\nBirdUncaged<br />\nRe: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances<br />\nIt\'s hard for me to even imagine a day when SS temple sealings would be a reality. But WOW! That would be amazing. Do you think the bulk of church membership would accept this? Or would it be considered the great apostasy of the last days, where many of the top leaders fall away? Would it divide the church to the point of it only being that burned out shell you wrote of earlier?\n<p>I\'m seeing things change so quickly right now in the Mormon church...and it\'s kind of blowing my mind. On behalf of all of us with gay brothers who are married to women, and pretending to be straight...THANK YOU. I would love to see the end of the Mormon church. But baring that, I would like to see future generations of Mormons be accepted for exactly who they are.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>steve benson<br />\nToday\'s Mormon Church has apostatized from Joseph Smith ...<br />\nIt truly is the latter days of the Falling Away of the Church of the Latter-days.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>jujubee<br />\nRe: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Fina</p>\n<p>bird, it depends on how they do it. steve is implying they\'re slowly changing things. that would make ssm easier to swallow for tbms. if they say it\'s a revelation, it should be accepted, but with grumbles.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>BirdUncaged<br />\nRe: Today\'s Mormon Church has apostatized from Joseph Smith ...<br />\nTrue that.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>steve benson<br />\nHow can they say it\'s a revelation when they won\'t even . . .<br />\n. . . sign their own essays?</p>\n<hr />\nrt<br />\nRe: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances\n<p>I am not aware of any SSM-related legal entanglements in Europe. Marriage has been open to everybody regardless of sexual orientation for more than 10 years over here (Holland) and not once has a suit been filed against any church for not allowing SSM in their church.</p>\n<p>In fact, civil servants are even allowed to refuse to perform a SSM if it conflicts with their personal and/or religious views (applies only if they were in the service when the law was changed, new civil servants must comply as part of their hiring conditions).</p>\n<p>I would imagine the same thing to be true for the US. As I said before, I cannot imagine anyone succesfully filing a lawsuit telling a church how to run their religion.</p>\n<p>Now, if that costs the church its tax-free status because it would be classified as an uncharitable organization toward gays, that would just be the price for standing up for the truth, wouldn\'t it? Surely the church would be willing to pay that price...</p>\n<hr />\n<p>steve benson<br />\nAs noted, the LDS Church has been forced to comply with UK requirements ...<br />\n. . . of marriages being publicly-accessible. Hence, the Mormon Church has been required, under British law, to have its members first wed out in the open via a state-sanctioned civil ceremony. (Following that, the Mormon Church is free to allow its newly-minted. garmied-up couples to go behind temple doors to have these civil unions religiously sanctified as secretly-sworn Mormon marriages).</p>\n<p>As quoted earlier up the thread:</p>\n<p>\"In the United Kingdom, the law requires that a marriage be performed at a public ceremony (the same also holds true for Austria). Since attendance at a [Mormon] temple sealing is restricted, a couple will be married locally by a person who is duly authorized to perform marriages. This person will usually be a registrar of marriages. The marriage can be performed at the local registrar\'s office, or in some cases at an LDS chapel. Some bishops or branch presidents have been officially given the title of a deputy registrar, and as such are legally able to perform a civil ceremony in the chapel. The couple will then travel to the nearest LDS temple (London or Preston) for their temple marriage.\"</p>\n<p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealing_(Mormonism);</p>\n<p>see also: <a href=\"http://blog.mrm.org/2013/09/punishing-mormon-newlyweds/comment-page-1/\" title=\"http://blog.mrm.org/2013/09/punishing-mormon-newlyweds/comment-page-1/\">http://blog.mrm.org/2013/09/punishing-mormon-newlyweds/comment-page-1/</a><br />\n_____</p>\n<p>It\'s a start and, granted, only a start. Nonetheless, it represents yet another round lost by the Mormon God under the hot lights of the boxing ring to its secular government opponent.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>GoggleEyes<br />\nRe: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances<br />\nI am new to this site and very greatful to Steve. Thank you Steve for your tireless research and informational posts. It is very much appreciated. Finally at last my family and I are free from the Church of Joseph Smith of ladder-day-LIES!</p>\n<hr />\n<p>verilyverily<br />\nRe: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances</p>\n<p>A memory hole (er....new policy/revelation) is any mechanism for the alteration or disappearance of inconvenient or embarrassing documents, photographs, transcripts, or other records, such as from a web site or other archive, particularly as part of an attempt to give the impression that something never happened.[1][2] The concept was first popularized by George Orwell\'s dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four where Big Brother\'s Ministry of Truth (LD$ Inc.) systematically re-created all potential historical documents, —in effect; re-writing all of history to match the often-changing state propaganda (er...secular society). These changes were complete and undetectable, EXCEPT FOR THE EX-MOS WHO KNOW THE WHOLE DAMN STORY AND WHO ARE NOT GOING TO JUST FORGET ABOUT THEIR PAST CRAP. People like Steve and Tom Phillips have had the courage to make sure these things don\'t just get sent down the memory hole. It takes Lots of courage!! We do appreciate it Steve and Tom.<br />\nGeorge Orwell is probably shocked in his grave watching his novel coming true. SCARY!</p>\n<hr />\n<p>verilyverily<br />\nRe: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances<br />\nToday\'s Mormon Church has apostatized from Joseph Smith ... YES Warren Jeff\'s church is more like JS\'s dream church. And both leaders ended up in jail.</p>\n<p>\"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org\"</p>\n', created = 1490286397, expire = 1490372797, headers = '', serialized = 0 WHERE cid = '2:b6cff20bef6cfee613a22716a6c8ad8d' in /home/exmormon/public_html/d6/drupal/includes/cache.inc on line 112.

steve benson Dec. 2013

As they say, when the Mormon crickets rain, they pour.

Below is further information coming out from the inside on a variety of fronts, pertaining to {the new essays, SSM and church finances}:

1) the research, authorship and internal consequences of the Mormon Church's essays on problematic areas of LDS history and doctrine;

2) internal Mormon Church developments relating to the evenaul nation-wide legalization of same-sex marriage and how the Mormon Church may be preparing to accommodate that scenario; and

3) the extent of LDS Inc. financial holdings and who inside the Mormon Church super-structure does and does not have full knowledge of LDS Inc.'s full financial picture
_____

--The Nature and Effect that the Mormon Church's Anonymously-Authored Essays Aee Having on Those Tasked to Write Them

According to a source of mine who has contacts with Mormon Church correlation committee employees, one of these individuals (whose identity, although known, is being kept confidential here) has direct contact with LDS General Authority/Church Historian and Recorder, Steven Snow. This Mormon Church-committee researcher/writer is regarded by colleagues as respected, informed, forthright and honest when it comes to Mormon Church historical issues--and is one who is seen as being well aware of the problems these issues pose to the Church. My source informs me that some of these Church researchers/writers, including this individual, get together on occasion to compare notes with one another.

The particular individual being mentioned here works within the Church's history-committee system and, from that vantage point, has been judiciously and strategically posting information in various venues about what they know about certain historical matters which are described as being sensitive for the Mormon Church.

For instance, it was this individual who publicly noted the following (as quoted earlier on this board):

"The concern going in from the Brethren was how to roll this out without creating a (look-at-all-of-our-problems) page. The Brethren don't want to start faith issues where they don't currently exist, and they are correct that the majority of active and believing Saints don't know or care about this stuff, particularly outside of Utah and the United States.

"The decision was made to incorporate them [the essays] into already-existing areas of the [Mormon Church's official] website and not do a big campaign (outside of the organic interest that will naturally result). From a business perspective, it's probably a wise move. . . . . [I]t's really all about inoculating the next generation. Elder [Steven] Snow has said as much directly to me. They are well aware that skeptics will likely not be satisfied with these answers or their choice of roll-out. It's there for members to see if they are planning lessons, talks, and I know that they are working towards integrating them with curriculum; particularly youth curriculum." . . .

“This much is clear: They [the essays] are not designed to restore people's faith as much as they are designed to lessen future disaffections; Members who come across damning information for the first time and turn to LDS.org to see what the Church says on the matter. The goal is to give them a faithful response while still acknowledging the complexity of the issue.”

("The Debate Over the 13 New Essays?," posted by “epiginosko,” in "New Order Mormon," 10-11 December 2013, at; http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33954&)start=20)
_____

--The Mormon Church is Said to Possibly be Preparing for an Inevitable National Legalization of Same-Sex Marriage and Considering Modifiying Its Temple Wedding Procedures Accordingly

My source has been in contact with what has been described as a well-placed and completely credible senior executive in the Utah corporate world (whose identity is also known but being protected here). This individual is reportedly aware of how the Morrmon Church's legal beagles may be looking at unfolding realites on the same-sex-marriage front.

According to this executive (some of whose posts I have seen), a member of the Mormon Church's legal team (a team that has long been battling marriage equality) is of the view that 50-state legalizion of same-sex marriage is an unavoidable eventuality.

Given that expectation, this Mormon Church legal advisor is reportedly of the view that the Mormon Church may ultimately implement a U.s.-focused policy that not only accepts civil unions, but that combines these constitutionally-lawful unions with LDS temple-performed sealings, in order to prevent the Mormon Church from becoming entangled in legal problems (along the same lines as the Mormon Church is now doing in some European countries).

commenting on these possible developments, the senior executive observed that if the law ends up driving the Mormon Church to adopt a civil-marriage-first policy,   it would make it much easier to preserve family cohesiveness when, otherwise, certain famly members would be excluded from celebrating LDS marital events because they are not deemed worthy to participate.
_____.

--Secrecy Within the Mormon Church Hierarchy Regarding the Full Breadth of Its Financial Holdings

Citing the same senior corporate excutive mentioend above, my source reported that only eight indivudals within the Mormon Church's highest functioning bodies are fully ware of LDS Inc.'s financials. These individuals are:

1) the First Presidency;

2) the Presiding Bishopric; and

3) two unnamed LDS finanical leaders (although one of whom is said to be related to the aformentioned senior corporate executive)

Pointed note was made that even the Quorum of the Twelve is not kept in the full fnaancial loop.

According to the senior executive, this small, elite group meets only once annually, at which time the complete financil picture for LDS Inc. is reviewed. The other individual components of the organization are described as being limited in their knowledge to only that part of organizational operations in which they are respectively involved.

**********

I appreciate my source's willingness to share the above credible, insightful and valuable information for the express purpose of public disclosure. As this individual observed, the Mormon Church is in need of experiencing the effects of sunlight on its secrets. To that end, they said they would pass information along as it is received.


Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances
Great information. Thank You

As Robert Frost once said, " It is all so departmental"

LDS = A corporation managed on current, modern principles of business management, with not even a passing thought about right or wrong or any concept of religion or ethics, or morals.

I recently have come to the conclusion that Mormon leaders are not religious people, merely opportunists looking for a comfortable corporate life, and a ego platform for themselves and their families ( hence the royalty factor ), and if they even had a marginal belief in a God, they would expose whatever truth they knew to the membership at large.

I now finally understand why I was sick to my stomach any time I heard a GA speak. For they are truly evil.

I have no idea if there is any type of God. However the little possibility that these stupid bastards would have to answer to something for their crimes gives me a deep and abiding joy in every fiber of my soul.


Dave the Atheist
Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances
good stuff

jazzskeeter
Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances
Thanks for the info!

I'm not connecting the dots about why the church would implement a civil marriage followed by a temple ceremony option for the U.S. as a result of nationwide legalization of gay marriage.

Please explain?
Thank you.


steve benson
The LDS Church, in this scenario, would recognize civil unions as valid...
. . . then seal them, under revamped LDS Church protocol, in their temples.

In other words, once again, the Mormon God would end up bowing to secular authority.


Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances
Yes, the "Mormon God" is a invention of selfish egomaniacs, masquerading as clergy....

Want to get a new young wife each time yours gets old, we have a god for that.

Want to run a hedge fund called a church by extracting 10% of income from your sheep, yep, gods all in.

Want to come up with "revelation" that contradicts earlier "revelation" but somehow both are from GOD??

Whatever and whenever these lying, filthy bastards want to tell a new whopper, they invent a new god for it.


moira
Re: The LDSChurch, in this scenario, would recognize civil unions as valid...

That would be amazing. I could possibly attend a TBM's wedding in my lifetime (what's left of it).


CloakedXman
Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances

Sorry I'm not following...are you saying civil unions may be "sealed" in the revamped ceremony? Thanks Steve.


steve benson
European precedent . . .

"In the United Kingdom, the law requires that a marriage be performed at a public ceremony (the same also holds true for Austria). Since attendance at a [Mormon] temple sealing is restricted, a couple will be married locally by a person who is duly authorized to perform marriages. This person will usually be a registrar of marriages. The marriage can be performed at the local registrar's office, or in some cases at an LDS chapel. Some bishops or branch presidents have been officially given the title of a deputy registrar, and as such are legally able to perform a civil ceremony in the chapel. The couple will then travel to the nearest LDS temple (London or Preston) for their temple marriage."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealing_(Mormonism);

see also: http://blog.mrm.org/2013/09/punishing-mormon-newlyweds/comment-page-1/


Senoritalamanita
Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances
Steve:

Regarding the 8 individuals -- the elite group that meets once a year to review the church financial situation:

Is there an Annual Report published for their review at this time or some other type of internal report on paper?

Wouldn't it be something to get hold of that document?


deco
Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances
I guess that throws out the notion of a 12 year old aaronic phood holder having more power in his little finger than POTUS or the pope

For Mormons keeping score, it is another asswhoopin courtesy of the American government.


johnnyboy
Re: European precedent . . .
How does this policy change affect gays and lesbians other than the fact that they can now attend a civil ceremony? Couldn't they already do that if the civil ceremony was held first? In other words the "marriage" is going to be a separate and distinct ceremony from the sealing.

I don't get why they didn't just do that to begin with.

Ugh. So tired of this. I can't wait to tell my TBM parents who got married in the 60's while their parents had to sit outside the temple and wait. Hahahaha!


steve benson
What it may do is result in the Mormon Church recognizing . . .
. . . the immediate validity of gay civil-union ceremonies in the eyes of the law, within the context of possibly eventuating in the Mormon Church sealing those ceremonies in its temples.

Don't say that it couldn't happen. Look at other "eternal" Mormon doctrines that have been warp-woofed over time:

--Blacks and the priesthood

--Polygamy

--Blood Atonement

--Men-into-Gods

The Mormon Church is an ever-fluctuating flavor-of-the-month religion, trying ever-so-hard to create a menu that appeals to wider non-Mormon society. It's rather pathetic to watch.


johnnyboy
Re: What it may do is result in the Mormon Church recognizing . . .

I see where the logic is going with what you are saying, but it seems that everything in the temple would have to be revamped AGAIN! (And again and again and again)


Ctus
Re: The LDS Church, in this scenario, would recognize civil unions as valid...
Even with same sex marriage becoming legal and even if the church allows these couples to be sealed in their temples, I don't see why they would automatically throw out their current "temple marriage first" admonitions. The two issues seem to be separate.


steve benson
The Mormon temple ceremony itself as been repeatedly revamped . . .
. . . with its death oaths, signs and penalties removed in 1990 (along with its direct-contact naked-body oil anointings); and, before that, its "Oath of Vengeance" against the United States government for the killing of Joseph Smith expunged, as well.

Hanklee
Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances
This document probably doesn't leave the Prophet's office or study room. Maybe it is compartementalized. Each person just looks at their area and submit the results independently. Only the prophet knows the entire picture.


Phillis
Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances
If this document was in a PDF and easily distributed it probably would have been done already. I'd think this info would be transferred to a physical log book so it can never "fall into the wrong hands".


steve benson
IF the Mormon Church eventually revokes its condemnation of gays . . .
. . . one may see gay unions/marriages (civil or otherwise) being sealed in the Mormon temple.

The LDS Church is the Gumby-version of modern-day revelation.


johnnyboy
Re: The LDS Church, in this scenario, would recognize civil unions as valid...
The policy has to change as a "stepping stone" towards accepting gay marriage at all.

The church won't go in such a major reversal on doctrine all at once. Baby steps are required. Just like the Boy Scout ruling. I don't expect gay sealings in my life time, but marriage first outside the temple...that's an easy doctrine, I mean "policy" change


steve benson
The Mormon Church has been in revelation-reversal mode from the beginning

It is hoping to do it slow enough, however, that busy-bee believing Mormons won't notice--and if they do notice, don't care because their leaders have commanded them not to care.


Ctus
Re: IF the Mormon Church eventually revolkes its condemnation of gays . . .
So did I misunderstand you? I thought you were implying that they would then throw out the temple first admonitions after they stay allowing same sex ceremonies.


johnnyboy
Re: The Mormon temple ceremony itself as been repeatedly revamped . . .
Hahaha. You should have seen my dads face when he told me how he knew more than me about church doctrine. I asked him "then explain to me the 2nd anointing and also the oath of vengeance".

He had no clue what I was talking about.


steve benson
The Mormon Church has thrown out plenty of doctrine . . .
It is now being pressured to allow civil marriages to be immediately recognized for sealing in Mormon temples (which could at some point result in immediate sealings of gay civl unions in their temples).

Who knows when that will occur, if it does.

But in the Mormon world of re-occurring retro-fitting, any "revelation" is possible.

Hell, it's now throwing out Brigham Young. Who's next? Only time and society will tell.


johnnyboy
Re: The Mormon Church has been in revelation-reversal mode from ithe beginning
That's how they handle everything even remotely "controversial". I'm out in north Texas in a very affluent area, and most of the TBM's here have no idea about any of these issues or church politics or apologetic politics (ie maxwell institute firings). Most of them don't even know about little things like the wofw policy change, or the changes to the scriptures this year. My TBM mom thought she was hip by telling me about the new "movie"... I mean FILM in the temple. I said, "yeah I knew about that months ago cus I read EVIL websites"


johnnyboy
Re: The Mormon Church has been in revelation-reversal mode from ithe beginning
The church is also quietly doing this with the "history of the church" volumes.

I am going to start a new thread about their reasons given for not using it anymore and how they "double speak" about it not being digitized


steve benson
I used to live in north Texas--Richardson, suburb of Dallas. . . .
There the Mormon Church was strong--and comfortably clueless.


Ctus
Re: The Mormon Church has thrown out plenty of doctrine . . ..
The thought of being able to see my kids married........
Of course none are even on the fence yet, but a couple are climbing. And some cog dis is beginning to set in for my daughter. One can hope. It may not even end up being an issue.


johnnyboy
Re: I used to live in north Texas--Richardson, suburb of Dallas. . . .
I knew you lived up there. I don't know how often you visit but the Plano, mckinney, frisco and Allen area is ridiculously Mormon and super wealthy now. The ward I am in is all full of rich fake boob women and TBM husbands who literally have no clue of the goings on in Utah. Most members are from all over the country. Most from California and Florida. I am sure there are a few lurkers that read this site, but my wife and I can't believe how little members really know.

BirdUncaged
Re: I used to live in north Texas--Richardson, suburb of Dallas. . . .
Stop picking on fake boob women!! Seriously, mine got sealed in my favorite temple...ehem... bra this weekend.


Brother Of Jerry
Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances
Interesting. Does my heart good that Boyd was always frozen out of the ultimate LDS inner circle. I suspect they were wise to do that. I wouldn't trust that weasel either.

As for same sex marriage, I expect full integration into church procedures. Second class recognition, or worse, no recognition would lead to as many problems for LDS Inc as it is in states. Trying to run some sort of marriage apartheid will land them in one procedural minefield after another. They will do the right thing, if only because it will be too difficult not to.

We need a COB version of Edward Snowdon, though it sounds like we are part way there. Cool. Nice work, Steve and the gang.


johnnyboy
Re: I used to live in north Texas--Richardson, suburb of Dallas. . . .
It's kind of hard not to when the young women's presidency all goes out together to get boob jobs and have parties for it while telling their daughters and 50 other young women at church that it's "what's inside that's important" and "looks don't matter".

The fact that they can do that with a straight face is sad.

Plus over half these women were already gorgeous, and now they just look really tacky.


BirdUncaged
Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances
It's hard for me to even imagine a day when SS temple sealings would be a reality. But WOW! That would be amazing. Do you think the bulk of church membership would accept this? Or would it be considered the great apostasy of the last days, where many of the top leaders fall away? Would it divide the church to the point of it only being that burned out shell you wrote of earlier?

I'm seeing things change so quickly right now in the Mormon church...and it's kind of blowing my mind. On behalf of all of us with gay brothers who are married to women, and pretending to be straight...THANK YOU. I would love to see the end of the Mormon church. But baring that, I would like to see future generations of Mormons be accepted for exactly who they are.


steve benson
Today's Mormon Church has apostatized from Joseph Smith ...
It truly is the latter days of the Falling Away of the Church of the Latter-days.


jujubee
Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Fina

bird, it depends on how they do it. steve is implying they're slowly changing things. that would make ssm easier to swallow for tbms. if they say it's a revelation, it should be accepted, but with grumbles.


BirdUncaged
Re: Today's Mormon Church has apostatized from Joseph Smith ...
True that.


steve benson
How can they say it's a revelation when they won't even . . .
. . . sign their own essays?


rt
Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances

I am not aware of any SSM-related legal entanglements in Europe. Marriage has been open to everybody regardless of sexual orientation for more than 10 years over here (Holland) and not once has a suit been filed against any church for not allowing SSM in their church.

In fact, civil servants are even allowed to refuse to perform a SSM if it conflicts with their personal and/or religious views (applies only if they were in the service when the law was changed, new civil servants must comply as part of their hiring conditions).

I would imagine the same thing to be true for the US. As I said before, I cannot imagine anyone succesfully filing a lawsuit telling a church how to run their religion.

Now, if that costs the church its tax-free status because it would be classified as an uncharitable organization toward gays, that would just be the price for standing up for the truth, wouldn't it? Surely the church would be willing to pay that price...


steve benson
As noted, the LDS Church has been forced to comply with UK requirements ...
. . . of marriages being publicly-accessible. Hence, the Mormon Church has been required, under British law, to have its members first wed out in the open via a state-sanctioned civil ceremony. (Following that, the Mormon Church is free to allow its newly-minted. garmied-up couples to go behind temple doors to have these civil unions religiously sanctified as secretly-sworn Mormon marriages).

As quoted earlier up the thread:

"In the United Kingdom, the law requires that a marriage be performed at a public ceremony (the same also holds true for Austria). Since attendance at a [Mormon] temple sealing is restricted, a couple will be married locally by a person who is duly authorized to perform marriages. This person will usually be a registrar of marriages. The marriage can be performed at the local registrar's office, or in some cases at an LDS chapel. Some bishops or branch presidents have been officially given the title of a deputy registrar, and as such are legally able to perform a civil ceremony in the chapel. The couple will then travel to the nearest LDS temple (London or Preston) for their temple marriage."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealing_(Mormonism);

see also: http://blog.mrm.org/2013/09/punishing-mormon-newlyweds/comment-page-1/
_____

It's a start and, granted, only a start. Nonetheless, it represents yet another round lost by the Mormon God under the hot lights of the boxing ring to its secular government opponent.


GoggleEyes
Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances
I am new to this site and very greatful to Steve. Thank you Steve for your tireless research and informational posts. It is very much appreciated. Finally at last my family and I are free from the Church of Joseph Smith of ladder-day-LIES!


verilyverily
Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances

A memory hole (er....new policy/revelation) is any mechanism for the alteration or disappearance of inconvenient or embarrassing documents, photographs, transcripts, or other records, such as from a web site or other archive, particularly as part of an attempt to give the impression that something never happened.[1][2] The concept was first popularized by George Orwell's dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four where Big Brother's Ministry of Truth (LD$ Inc.) systematically re-created all potential historical documents, —in effect; re-writing all of history to match the often-changing state propaganda (er...secular society). These changes were complete and undetectable, EXCEPT FOR THE EX-MOS WHO KNOW THE WHOLE DAMN STORY AND WHO ARE NOT GOING TO JUST FORGET ABOUT THEIR PAST CRAP. People like Steve and Tom Phillips have had the courage to make sure these things don't just get sent down the memory hole. It takes Lots of courage!! We do appreciate it Steve and Tom.
George Orwell is probably shocked in his grave watching his novel coming true. SCARY!


verilyverily
Re: More Sourced Info on Church Essays, Same-Sex Marriage and LDS Inc. Finances
Today's Mormon Church has apostatized from Joseph Smith ... YES Warren Jeff's church is more like JS's dream church. And both leaders ended up in jail.

"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"