Recovery from Mormonism

alex71ut

I wrote:

The LDS chuch can certainly be helped greatly by any information that can help point out the flaws of various scientific theories. That's why I strongly advocate that it would greatly help the Church specifically in promoting their credibility to the honest people of the world if they were to open up the archives and take an attitude of "let's get all the information out there, let the chips fall where they may, and lets have faith that Heavenly Father will bless us for being honest". The first item I'd suggest seeing the light of day would be the Joseph Smith papyri. If it truly was written upon papyrus as the Pearl of Great Price declares then it would be the oldest known writing on the earth and its right in our home state of Utah.

She wrote:

As to the Joseph Smith papyri, let us remember that symbolism is a huge part of any culture's past, and there are always going to be unanswered or unanswerable questions due to the fact that we do not have all information and facts before us as to events we did not actually eyewitness. Therefore, we continue to search for artifacts and their meaning, throwing out old theories, grafting in new ones, endlessly. Two things about symbolism that are huge is that before writing as we know it today symbolism was the primary mode of communicating to the future and or when one could not always be physically present to orally communicate. People had to be able to communicate somehow. The other thing I want to mention about symbolism is the corruption and transference factors. Corruption or adulteration of anything from original source or original intent rampant everywhere throughout time. As to transference I would suspect that due to much overlap between pagan and orthodox religious symbolism that going back into the far reaches of pre-written history of man, much transference between pagan symbolism and orthodox traditional symbolism had to occur because not all human beings were either willing or able to keep things separate and or pure. Chicken or egg, sometimes it seems. I do not see absolute certain knowledge with regard to symbolism likely so therefore not my highest goal. I study symbolism with a curious but open mind, subject to further light and knowledge, at all times, to help clarify and solidify true symbolic meanings and the purposes they are intended to convey to those not ready to sit down and read voluminous books instead. Symbolism simply trying to act as shorthand, whenever possible. And there is Horus to consider, very likely a reference to Jesus Christ. Or am I thinking of Osiris? Haven't looked at the specific details recently.

My thoughts:

Oh my .... is this the future on how Mormonism deals with itself?

imalive
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
What she wrote sounds so discombobulated it made absolutely no sense to me. O_o

Stumbling
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
Ask her why Joseph said 'written by his own hand on the papyrus' when in actual fact Abraham had been long dead when it was written.

JoD3:360
To your TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
Even if the scrolls (including the missing portions) contained the Gospel as the mormons proclaim they do, symbolism or not, they have absolutely no place in a funeral rite where the parchments are designed to get the deceased through the judgement and into the Field of Reeds where the magical Breathing Permit of Hor allows them to live.

Having the text of the Book of Abraham included in that context would be as out of place as reading from a car parts catalog during the Sealing Ceremony.

TheExorcist
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
PLUS Mormons proclaim that the Gospel existed from the beginning....Adam and Eve, and even invent documents to prove it (the Book of Moses). That's a ridiculous claim. There were prophecies and types of Christ but no "Gospel" as contained in the New Testament. Just another fantastic and false claim by TSCC

justanotherprettypiece
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
Did she even answer your question at all? I'm very confused by her response. She goes off talking about symbolism when all you said was the church should put historical facts it's hidden out in the open.

ex missionary
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
i wonder if she is trying to paraphrase Nibley apologetics.

i haven't read the Nibley book on the topic so i'm not sure, but my guess is that it probably acknowledges that the translations do not match what is in the Book of Abraham and then tries to make an argument for multiple levels of meaning with the symbolic or truer level lost or unintelligible to modern translators.

JoD3:360
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
I also liked the part about "...true symbolic meanings and the purposes they are intended to convey to those not ready to sit down and read voluminous books instead."

So the true meaning behind symbolism is up to the individual? What about those who get something new every time they read the scriptures or any other txt for that matter?

Could JSjr been mistaken when he gleaned certain insights from the papyrus? Yes he could. After all, it contained essential doctrines that made the LDS church unique like polygamy and the curse of Cain through the loins of Ham, thus denying the priesthood for generations to those deemed to have been less valiant in the Pre-Mortal life.

Those doctrines have been dismissed and you can get into trouble for teaching them. Thus, was Joseph mstaken in his interpretation of the proposed symbolism, or did the church go astray?

And lastly, how can a person gain useful knowledge if they choose to avoid reading books and merely imagine what is in them by looking at something unrelated?

PapaKen
Whut? 

Devoted Exmo
Re: Whut?
Translation: I don't know anything about the Egyptian language, customs, etc. therefore no one does. If JSjr, used the papyrus to create the Book of Abraham and the Pearl of Great Price from them, I'm not obligated to believe it was a direct translation. It could have just been inspiration.

You're welcome!

Brother Of Jerry
The woman's a walking postmodernist fog machine.
The BoA papyri are 2,000 years too young to have been written in the time of Abraham, much less BY Abraham. There's nothing symbolic about carbon-14 dating.

The form of Egyptian used didn't even exist in the time of Abraham.

The BoA has been all but decanonized by the LDS leadership. It is no longer covered in lesson manuals, and it has been years (how many? Anyone?) since it was quoted in General Conference.

The papyri, received with much ballyhoo in the 1960s, are no longer mentioned except by apologists. Many Mormons don't know the Church even has them. They have been swept under the symbolic carpet, as long as we are talking symbolism.

Sister can slather all the symbolic paint she wants. There's still a cold hard reality underneath, and it squares not at all with what JS claimed.

Stunted
Isn't it funny how they go "off the rails" like that.
It sounds just like my wife when she starts trying to defend the church. She talks herself into circles of nonsense then blames me for attacking her precious religion.

From a fortune cookie:

Life is a comedy for those who think and a tragedy for those who feel.

T-Rex
Also, just ask: why does God make @#$%& so complicated? 

Jonny the Smoke
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
She wrote:

"...due to the fact that we do not have all information and facts before us as to events we did not actually eyewitness. Therefore, we continue to search for artifacts and their meaning, throwing out old theories, grafting in new ones, endlessly"

I think she is saying that mormonism requires and allows one to shift perspective, opinion, belief and knowledge based on new evidence and study.....

.....just like science does......

....which is why mormon's don't trust science.....

....beacuse science is always changing its perspective, opinion, belief and knowledge based on new evidence and study.....

Yeah, that makes sense I guess.

FreeRose
+1
MormonThink in overdrive.

exmollymo
Re: The woman's a walking postmodernist fog machine.
The BoA is still used in the current Gospel Principles Manual.

Chapter 2 and 3. There may be more references, but I didnt look any further.

Here is a link to chapter 3-

http://lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-3-jesus-christ-our-chose...

mrtranquility
Speaking of symbolism
There are symbols all over the papyri and independent Egyptologists can translate them and come up with nearly identical translations. It's a common Egyptian funeral text of which there are hundreds of existing examples.

JS's translation is nothing like them. His "translation" has one Egyptian symbol translating into about a paragraph's worth of English words. Just a written language (in which one symbol equals that much information) would be so difficult to use that it would be nearly impossible to learn. No one could use such a language for practical use.

Your sister's response trips the B.S. detector. She obviously is a believer, but she makes no sense.

Subway Jerod
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
I just keep thinking about the dude that sold the paparii to Joe Smith. He must have been an amazing con man. I think even PT Barnum would have stood in awe.

He conned a con.

kolobian
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
<<"...due to the fact that we do not have all information and facts before us as to events we did not actually eyewitness.">>

This is exactly what creationsts say about dinosaurs.

Jonny the Smoke
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
I don't think the original owner was a con man. this is the story as I remember reading it years ago....

The original owner of the collection of stuff...mummies, papyrus, etc....was using them in a travelling exhibit, charging people to view them. That's all. I don't think he was claiming anything about Abraham, etc....just displaying the artifacts and making money off it.

Joseph got wind of it or saw it himself and worked out a purchase from the owner.....to make money showing them?....because he had his BofA plan in mind already? I don't know. But all the BofA stuff came later, after he bought the collection from the guy that was only displaying them for a fee.

freeman
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
WTF?

Her response didn't make the slightest bit of sense.

corajudd
I love to refute Mormon logic.
"...we do not have all information and facts before us as to events we did not actually eyewitness."

Her statement infers that when the LDS church does have "information" and "facts" and "eyewitnesses" it incorporates those truths into it's doctrine. This is called "Mormonism's #1 Lie".

"...we continue to search for artifacts..."

Really? Who? Where? That pseudo-expedition in the 80s?
Mormon apologists ignore the single most logical conclusion to be drawn from the stark absence of BoM artifacts in the Americas.
(From 5 days ago; http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/20/scitech/main20123388.shtml
a lonely 14,000 y/o bone spear survives; yet, the Mormons can't find their entire civilizations that used steel, iron, wheels, chariots, horses and their brass and tackle, roads, languages, cities, buildings? Odd. )

"...before writing as we know it today symbolism was..." blah, blah, blah.

Pure Nibley-ism: the papyri have several layers of text and meaning. Only Mormons have ever attempted this academic fraud, and only after the missing papyri were found and accurately translated.

I don't want to go personal but the rest of the letter is classic Orwellian doublespeak.

Why do Mormons formulate scientific-sounding hypothesis for anything at all? The only answer of integrity to your questions is, "I don't have to understand it because I have faith the church is true."

Ignorant, yes. But honest.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2011 04:44PM by corajudd.

Thread Killer
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
That reads like the best of Ash & Co. I was just looking at something on Mormon Wiki the other day and, IIRC, it was trying to say that ancient jews would have different interperetations of egyptian symbols; therefore, modern egyptologists can't possibly know how a jew living in 200 B.C. would read those papyri. Well....yeah...like "That's a bird, I guess, and there's some dude, probably the pharoah, and if you tilt your sideways that looks like a...oh, what the hell, it's all egyptian and I don't know what it means."

Like JOD says, it's sort of like taking the parts list for a '54 Chrysler Imperial and telling everyone it's the story of My Little Pony when she meets up with Gregory House, M.D.

Pista
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
My favorite part is the bit at the end when she writes about Horus as a reference to Jesus Christ, when the Horus myth predates Christianity by thousands of years. I suppose she thinks that makes it a prophecy.

Boomer
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
Sister's response is a great example of doublespeak--there are words arranged in grammatical order, but they tell nothing. It's a classic maneuver by those who have nothing significant to say but must make a reply. Suggest that your sister take a basic college composition class, where this sort of nonsense is discussed and not permitted.

Richard the Bad
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
I see she chose the alternative to dazzling with brilliance.

Devoted Exmo
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
Hahaha!! Pretty much.

I also think she's saying that JS can't be wrong. The translation can't be wrong. But since modern Egyptologists as scientists have a very different interpretation, then the scientist (due to the fact that science changes with each new discovery) has not yet hit onto the right theory that will confirm to me that JS was correct! Yeah. That's the ticket!

baura
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
Mormons blather on and on about "absolute truth."

But when you give them some solid facts, some "absolute truth," they get all postmodern on you and "nobody can know anything."

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2011 09:42PM by baura.

AmIDarkNow?
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
There is no logic but "Nibley" logic in her reply. Red herrings, obfuscation misdirection and just plain nonsense. Not one thing she said can stand up to the slightest scrutiny. She does not know just how wrong she is. Her reply sounds like mormon "parroting" and not about actual study of the whole subject.

Peter Dumpty
Re: Email from my TBM sister about the Book of Abraham
She is like a GA who fills up his extra time at Stake Conf. with blather after blather with no direction other than to sound authoritative.

"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"